Dear Jon,

Thanks again for a sincere and thoughtful reply.  I think if I were the minister in an amen-ministries church I might have written much the same thing.

But I'm not.  I'm the guy that doesn't recognize a "God vs. Science" polarity.  If anything, I recognize a "God vs. Gospel" polarity and place the problem at the feet of those (like yourself) who presume to speak for the Lord. 

I'm pretty firm in my view that all words are spoken (and/or written) by man and anyone presuming to speak for God is either misguided or a charlatan. God is willing to reveal his creation but we must open our eyes to see it. That is science.

You might surmise from what I've just written that I also reject the notion that there is any conflict between "man's advancements" and "God's sovereignty". God can be known from the outside in as in science or the inside out as in meditation but he is never revealed in church dogma.

And it is only dogma that has you speaking of 'the end times'.  People were speaking of 'the end times' two thousand years ago and a few will probably be speaking of 'the end times' two thousand years into the future but I've put that kind of talk out of my life for now, until I come to my own 'end time'.

Your post sent me off on a merry chase that brought me some nice articles about Christian-Rationalism.  It seems to me that modern-day Christians (such as yourself) are actually wanna-be Jews, people who have tossed Christ's teachings out the window and cite mainly the old testament, but Christian rationalism restores Christ and rationality.  You might check it out in your leisure.

Warmest regards,

Ian

p.s. A very wise man once said, "Don't judge another until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way, you're a mile away and you have his shoes"

Amen Ministries wrote:

Ian

You certainly seem to have the conceptual and academic complexity to sort out the God vs. Science polarity.  Or Faith in the Word of God vs. scientific empiricism.

You as well seem to be caught on the proverbial horns of the eschatological dilemma as to were to place your trust, in man's advancements or God's sovereignty. 

The debate over separation of 'church and state' is really no longer a viable turf for argument since the incoming Administration (as well as the advancing secular world), and the social-progressive left-of-center mind set, will erode away most of the religious sanctifications upon which this Nation was founded.  This is not defeatism, rather a full and unabridged trust in God's outworking of His endtime Plan (Eph. 1:10) [That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:]

We are entering into the biblical time referred to as the 'great apostasia' (the falling away from belief and reliance on scriptural Truth of His Word) which must take place for the fulfillment of endtime prophetic events, prior to the Tribulation Period.  All of God's creation is literally standing in the center of the Valley of Decision, either we choose God or Man and their respective powers, supremacy, and eternity.  Prayerfully, you have made the right decision.  As long as the merits of the decision are argued, then the decision remains subject to tomorrow's revelations.

Bottom-line, we may not have as many tomorrow's as the optimistic futurists foist on us, to make the critical mass decisions that will follow us throughout eternity.

Again, a Blessed New Year to you and yours.

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: Ian Reid

To: Amen Ministries

Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 6:37 PM

Subject: Re: Fw: God vs. Science?

Dear Jon,
Thank you so very much for your thoughtful and considered reply.  I am somewhat aware of the editorials and commentaries in the Statesman but saw them more as arguments in support of the separation of church and state than as attacks against God.  I just recently sent you links to articles that support this separation and would welcome your reactions. 

It seems to me that we differ specifically in terms of how much credibility we lend to Genesis.  I think the authors told the story as well as they understood it -- given their level of knowledge concerning the of the workings of nature -- but that one can interpret Genesis (and other Biblical passages)  mythically without turning against God.

Thanks again,

Ian

p.s. I've read quite extensively about Christopher Columbus and it seems totally mythical that he feared falling off the earth.  He was quite certain the earth was a sphere but was wrong in his estimate of the diameter. He died believing he had reached Asia.  (Following his fourth voyage to America he was returned to Spain in chains.)
Amen Ministries wrote:

Greetings Ian, in the New Year

The Letter-to-the-Editor was in response to a series of Editorials and local Commentaries from the UT arena, all of which were blatantly anti-Christian/God on their face, along with an over-the-top-pitch for Darwinism-Evolutionism-Secularism and even Atheism in place of Christianity, for making sense out of the world and its current anomalies.

The Galileo association seems to be from another point of argument ... during his time, Science believed the earth was Flat, the Sun revolved around the earth, and the earth was the center of the universe.  

Science has gotten it wrong, big time, throughout history. Galileo with his newly fashioned telescopes, did dispel the Sun vs. Earth controversy.  Christopher Columbus was fearful he might sail off the edge of the earth when reaching out for discovery of the New Americas.

 

As to God not wanting his creation to 'look up and see", the few scripture examples below set forth His expectations for mankind.

How does the New Zealand Aborigine become aware of God if he has no bible, no preacher, and can't read modern-day translations?

 

Psalm 19: 1-3 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.  2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their [the heavens'] voice is not heard.

Psalm 19:4b In them [the heavens] hath he set a tabernacle for the sun.

Psalm 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-43,GGLJ:en&q=god+displayed+in+the+heavens

 

Science has been the modern boon to mankind's efforts to cope with his environment, disease, and understanding of the mysteries of the earth/skies ... we just fully mapped the human gnome two years ago and are now into Nano Technology.  When Darwinism (Evolution/Science vs. Creationism/Intelligent Design) comes into discussion .... I often say  to those which hold to Darwin's Origin of the Species ... as things really start to go wrong (e.g., domestic  terrorism, nuclear exchanges) consider praying to 'Darwin' and see what he can do about it.

 

The crux of my Letter was "The false premise here is that science,

Darwinism and technology will save us from ourselves and the terribleness

of the endtimes, which forebode eminent homeland terrorism, catastrophic

economic sinkholes, flaming civil unrest and a potential cratering of America."

 

If Science is the savior of mankind, then we are only as safe as the last discovery ... they still can't conquer HIV, the virus mutates too quickly and morphs into unknown strains.  It is one of the biblical endtimes plagues.

May this New Year bring you continued health, property and happiness in all of your doings.

JDH

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: Ian Reid

To: amen_ministries@hotmail.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:44 PM

Subject: God vs. Science?

Dear Jon,
I recently read the letter you sent to the Austin American Statesman, to
wit:
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"The pernicious and evil-minded attacks on Christianity and God by the
editorial moguls at the America-Statesman continue. However, the "us" of
the Statesman's apostasy does not represent the whole of Austin.

The false premise here is that science, Darwinism and technology will
save us from ourselves and the terribleness of the endtimes, which
forebode eminent homeland terrorism, catastrophic economic sinkholes,
flaming civil unrest and a potential cratering of America.

As we teeter on the precipice of consequences beyond our human control,
we find ourselves smack-up against the choice of science vs. God. We
know which the Statesman has chosen. Don't go there!

Jon D. Hannum

Amen Ministries of Austin"

It is my understanding that 'science' first came into conflict with
organized religion when Galileo pointed out that, contrary to church
doctrine, there were moons going around Jupiter.  No where that I know
of did God ever say there were no moons and perhaps at that moment
Galileo stood closer to God that the church fathers but that's my view
and I wanted to get your take on it.  Did God not want us to look to the
skies and to see?


Or what?

Ian